#21 Nathan Sermonis: On a mission to bring electricity to rural Africa.

00: 00:00Julia: Okay, cool. Now, you made it pretty hard. You have. When I typed in your name. Nathan Sermonis like, there were so many things coming up. Super cool articles to read. Honestly, it was a fun exploration of you again. I mean, we know each other for a while, so I think my conclusion is what you can be called is really an impacter you have. And an adventurer, to be honest, because you have sailed around the world with a solar battery boat and you've built yourself, if I got that correctly. And at the same time, your goal at the moment is the rural electrification in sub-Saharan Africa, and you have two companies with which you do that. So we were going to explore all of that, how you got there and like how you have amazing projects in the last couple of years. But because it's such an interesting combination, your passion for the adventures and your passion for sustainable energies, I really would like to start with understanding, like where did you grow up? And like, how did your life look like when you were a kid?

00: 01:14Nathan: Sure. Yeah. Um. Well. I've. I've been. Yeah, I've started in Kentucky. That's where I started. And that was only a few years when I was, when I was my young, uh, farm boy self in the rural parts of, of middle Kentucky, um, where my dad, we had a farm, and I just love the outdoors there. Even one of my first memories is going wandering through a field, trying to remember trying to go find one of these big radio towers that I saw in the distance. And I was thinking, at least as far as I remember, I want to go check that out. See what? What is this thing? And then, uh, yeah. And then and then wandered through the forest and actually got stuck in a bunch of barbed wire and had a Lassie moment with my dog who came in, rescued me. Oh, my God. From the. Yeah. The the trap that I'd ensnared myself in. Um. So. Yeah. My, my, I remember the vision of that, that radio tower. My parents recall the rescue mission, and I just, you know, that that moment, that experience just, I guess, shows that I've always been wanting to wander and explore and go see what's on the horizon, and and danger be be damned.

00: 03:00Julia: Yah, interesting. Not only on the, you know, some people go and explore like, okay, how does the how is the toaster constructed? Let's deconstructed and understand what's going on. But you actually, as you said, you were wondering what is going on on the horizons, like what is this tower doing?

00: 03:14Nathan: Yes. What is that thing? So yeah, that's when but then we, we moved to upstate New York, one of the older and also grew up though on farms and fields and in very rural areas. So a lot of hiking and hunting and fishing and very outdoorsy sort of, uh, experience growing up. And, and that really stuck with me into adulthood.

00: 03:46Julia: What are your parents doing actually like because, I mean, living so rural means that you have to have a job either on the farm or what did you do?

00: 03:55Nathan: Yeah. Well, my, my dad, very much a blue collar worker linesman, kind of. He was a phone repairman, you know, from the the old days when we had phones on landlines. Okay. He's climbing poles and fixing wires and you know that that kind of very hands on, labor intensive sort of work. So, you know, he's a quite the rugged dude, I would suppose. I'd say my mom, on the other hand, IT specialist with.

00: 04:29Julia: Interesting.

00: 04:30Nathan: Company. Yeah. Like a company that was building railroad cars, um, for for Metro Transit in New York City or DC or etcetera. Um, so she's very much the technology guru, and then dad's the sort of hands on craftsman kind of DIY guy. So think of a good mix of both of them. So I used to. Yeah. Mean build websites was one of my first businesses as a high schooler. Good websites for my friends that had started bands. And then likewise I was doing recording of musician friends and myself and and then on the other hand, uh, building, you know, rock walls and patios and stacking wood with my dad and, you know, doing digging ditches and whatever else the house needs had to be done. Um, so, yeah, I guess learned a lot. Well rounded, I would suppose. Upbringing, um, and and think that being in a place that was quite small, um, you know, my school was very small. I graduated with 157 students, so not that big. And. Yeah, think that, um, my parents being always very encouraging to go try new things and not be afraid of failure and, you know, but also very strong work ethic. That you never get anything handed to you on a silver spoon. So if you want to achieve something or get something, have something like then you know you need to put in the time, effort, labor. Um, so I think that, yeah, all of those experiences and growing up in a small town like, you know, there's not a heck of a lot to do. So there wasn't really an option to stay with my interest and exploring the world and broadening my horizons. So. So it was. Yeah, it was always very clear. I'm going to find something outside of this place which I still love, and I like to go visit, obviously family stuff, but wasn't the long term vision. So, you know, knowing that, recognizing that certainly gave some incentive to figure out what is the path for what is what make what would make me happy and where is that going to be? And and go chase it. Go chase the dreams. So yeah, I don't know. That's a very long winded and roundabout background on, you know, my, my growing up I suppose.

00: 07:35Julia: Yeah. No, it's a very interesting combination. I think you knowing you, you can definitely feel that still present in you today. There are lots of people, you know, that have to rediscover that, you know, they have this as a kid, have some rural upbringing. They do a lot of work with their hands, enjoy it. They go wandering and then they go in the corporate world and forget everything. Um, I don't know if you're founded now or if that has always been part of you, but you definitely feel these two components in the person that you are today.

00: 08:11Nathan: Yeah. And I mean, maybe I'll already answer some other questions that that don't want to jump ahead, but the answer is yes. And there's definitely something there that I can talk about.

00: 08:25Julia: Yeah. See you don't know. Yeah. So like whatever it comes up.

00: 08:29Nathan: So I think yeah I mean I, I found my way out. So after college I got into politics, um, and the vision there was to work in energy policy and environmental policy. So, um, having those experiences in the field, hunting and fishing in the forests and streams, um, I, I wanted to do something with conservation. And what I had in mind first was doing, doing work in the, in the field of biology, wildlife biology, ecology, something like that. Hands on. And I did do that in the field that was, you know, working on prairie dog surveys or assessing the pH balance of wetland soils and trying to understand the impact and the the overlap between like human space and activities versus wild spaces and the natural world. And that was super fascinating. But I think at one point I just realized also the importance of having advocates for nature in the halls of Washington, D.C., and where decisions are made in terms of national policy funding, you know, regulations and things like this. So, so veered into that world. And for time, it was nice in DC, you know, and. Writing and reading reports, and working on legislation and being the advocate that it is critically necessary to pass laws that are going to protect the environment. And. But that kind of spun off into the world of foreign policy and national security. Working on how? Because because well, I think. There's a a lot of decisions are made based on, you know, people in in government and climate change being one that really you know, the advocates and in, in have mostly pursued, you know, visions of or narratives, important narratives about protecting the climate for, for wild wildlife, for, for environmental purposes. But there's another interesting take on that or angle to that, and how natural resources being impacted by climate change impacts human beings impacts people in. Uh, potential conflict zones, peoples. You know, it impacts like military readiness bases and things like this. Rising sea levels impacts coastal communities where there's like, you know, naval installation, things like this. There's there's a lot of research that talks about how, you know, conflict in Syria has roots and elements that go back to agricultural impacts and drought and things like this. So hungry people and climate induced resource scarcity. Causes caused by climate change. Um, can can be the the sort of tinder or the spark for for conflict and for, um, you know, some of the things in relationships and the world that we see today. Absolutely. So anyways, yeah, started working on that. But but it's all very interesting high level stuff but really missed sort of working on tangible projects. It's like, you know, high minded thinking and visions and policy strategy and things like this. But, you know, fortunately there's a lot of people doing amazing work in that space. But at some point I was like, yeah, this is super important, but I can't, I don't know, I feel I feel like I'm not making like, real impact happening myself. I'm working with awesome people that are doing it. And I'm, you know, I'm trying to help coordinate that and be a part of that. But I just missed building things and I want to be.

00: 13:09Julia: One of them.

00: 13:10Nathan: Projects. Yeah. So that's why. So I got a sailboat and. That for a time was very cool and just enjoyed sort of DIY hobbyists work on it and and then and then it all came together and I realized, oh, wow, you know, I love these renewable energy things. I love solar, and, you know, we're advocating on behalf of of clean energy projects for environmental purposes, you know, the climate change elements relating to the security elements that I mentioned. But then also it's really practical because out on the ocean, out on this boat, like I can't plug into a power line, there's there's nothing here. So if I want energy and I had batteries on board that would go dead. And then I was stuck like in the middle of the night with no lights, which was not good. Or even occasions when like, there's no wind, so you have to use a gas, a gas engine and, and like being so terrified that I'm going to run out of gas between here and the next gas station that this idea came to mind. What what about building this? Cool, like solar power, a huge solar system with electric motor and batteries and have this infinity ship? So that that came to mind and got some friends together and we were like, cool. How would we how do we do this? And I gathered some engineering pals that gave advice. Did a lot of Google searching. How does a solar panel work? Because I had no idea.

00: 14:56Julia: So at that point you did make the policy. How do you say that? Adviser advised. You advised on policies, but you didn't really know how.

00: 15:05Nathan: No idea. Yeah. What what is these electrons do if in this panel what is a battery actually do like. Yeah I had no idea. So you know, as far as the bio biology stuff had had a background in understanding in that. But then, you know, the pivot to clean energy. It's related. Right. But it's like. Building clean energy to protect the biological background and nature based experience and passion that I have. But I had no idea like how this stuff actually works. So undertook that, said, okay, well, let's figure out how this thing works and build this cool boat and and then how to fund it. I'll start an NGO and we'll, we'll make a whole, you know, educational experience out of out of it. We'll film it, we'll talk about it. We'll kind of be an example of how people that have no idea how this stuff works can learn about it and how it is like an everyday, people approachable thing to to empower yourself to, to build renewable energy systems and how it's really not rocket science. And, and so that experience was very cool. And then we also, you know, had this cool project, this boat and wanted to share it with people. So we so we hosted events and like community classrooms and we sailed from the Marina where we were keeping it. We sailed it to DC, and then we hosted like school groups and, you know, other, other community type of folks and just took them on a spin. And, you know, this is what solar power does. It powers this electric motor. And it's very cool. And, you know, when it sits on someone's roof. Yeah, it's not that interesting. But when you actually have a tangible like experience with renewable projects, solar projects like it to me at least, just really got a super excited and thought, you know, well, this is this is cool, where else can we take it? So we, we went on this adventure to Cuba and on this boat and we, we did 3000 miles there and then we, we filmed and told stories of other renewable energy projects on our. Yeah, we.

00: 17:38Julia: Have to talk about that because I think that is a very, very interesting project. Honestly. I think this is one of the most special things. Um, but I just wanted to highlight quickly like this, you know, not only having an idea. Okay, cool. I got into you. Got you found your passion in DC, being in a sailing club, right? Like you didn't say ever before. So you somehow discovered this love and then. Okay, cool. I use my connection, like, not use my connection. I have this connection in my head. Like, why doesn't this work? I just apply what I know, yeah, and bring it together. And I was just wondering, like, weren't there any vendors that already sold solar powered boats? Why did you do it yourself? Like, wasn't there already a solution out there?

00: 18:23Nathan: Yeah. Now this I really so yeah, getting into sailing I had learned there because I grew up on a lake in this, you know, in the rural areas. Um, and I never was interested in sailing. It was just, it was too slow and I wanted I had a jet ski, had no interest, but, you know, maturing. And then now I'm in DC and, and I missed the connection with sort of the outdoor space. And DC has some parks and stuff. Cool. But um, but to get to do sort of hands on, uh, adventure kind of activities that love, you have to get outside of the city a bit. But then I learned about this sailing program that was about raising money for leukemia research. And you learn how to sail at the same time as this regatta thing that a friend had introduced me to. And I thought, oh, well, that's that's pretty awesome, you know? Good cause. And I can also learn a new skill and then dabbled in that. And I was hooked because the just the, the freedom of sailboat, like it was so cool. The idea that you know, and when I was starting to learn I didn't have it was a smaller boat. So there's no engines or anything like this, the lights, whatever. But you just kind of, you know, push the tiller, pull the sail, and you go here, there, wherever. And it's just so, so absolute teamwork.

00: 19:59Julia: You have to really communicate well. So it's a very good exercise.

00: 20:04Nathan: Definitely teamwork involved. But but the I don't know not it's not primal but it's just like so simple like this technology of pulling this piece of cloth. And you know, I get to direct this boat, you know, that's that's thousands of years old, this, this old, ancient method, um, and just the simplicity and awesomeness of it, like, oh, this is. This is very cool. So. So yeah. So that that that hooked me and then then I yeah. Well then I became an instructor and then, then after all that experience and then the need to have like a hands on project that I missed that that's when it, that's when I got the boat. Yeah.

00: 20:50Julia: And when the spot comes, you know, because I mean finding your passion, it sounds so easy. But, you know, it takes a while. You just, like, follow what actually is fun. You just go along, go with the flow, and then you realize all of a sudden, hey, there might be something bigger, because when you just said like. And then we, we went to Cuba. You know, it sounds like something super small, but I mean, you had to, as you said, get the resources. You you could have gone the easy way. You didn't like just going with traditional existing vendors. You build it yourself. You knew how to get the funding because you were working for the US Congress and the House of Representatives. You had the probably the the network that you needed for this and then found like, how's it called Victoria Energy Expedition. So all next to your work. So, you know, it's not just a little thing. We're going to Cuba. That was a real purpose behind that, because now you've found this whole space of, okay, solar energy is interesting, that something that might be my path. I don't know if you had that thinking already or if that wasn't what You weren't there yet.

00: 22:02Nathan: Yeah. And let me let me go back to the the question about the vendors. I lost my train of thought, but yes. So what I was going to say is the sailing world is really awesome. It's full of sort of bootstraps DIY'S, people and personalities and um, and there's definitely so because of the need that I, that I mentioned, you know, other people obviously found that need and realization sailing as well. They're like, you know, what would be great would be some solar panels out here because, you know, I need to run my GPS. I need to wear my lights and whatever. Um, and so definitely there's, there's, there are manufacturers and um, and specialists in solar rising sailboats and regular boats as well. And there's, there's a it's it's really cool. Um, there's a lot of new companies that are building electric propulsion. Um, there's and specific batteries for boats and things like this, but it is. Pretty pricey. So it's a bit costly. So we were poor and um, and literally yeah, mean we, we wanted to, uh, we wanted to do it on the cheap, but we also wanted to do it in a way. Yeah. That was like approachable for other people. Um, the Joe Schmo DIY type of people that we're trying to reach, like.

00: 23:40Julia: So I love that that because not not having money makes you very inventive. You know, you can actually come up with solutions that you normally can just put some money on it and solve it. Yeah, yeah, you have to get creative.

00: 23:52Nathan: And that's another angle to the project that I mean, there's so many angles to it and I. I don't know if I'm representing it well enough, but another angle to it is like. It's some guys on a boat that have no background in engineering. We have friends that taught us how to string up batteries and stuff like this. But you know, we had no background. Two we're broke, so we had to do it on the cheap. And three. The practical application of the technology exactly to our need and well, for adventure. Awesome. Like cool adventure sailing down the coast and to Cuba and, you know, visiting these interesting places. And, you know, the idea of the project was to just kind of show people or be this fun journey adventure of the practical side of the systems, but then also like getting people who don't care necessarily about, you know, solar fields and.

00: 25:03Julia: Sustainable energy in general.

00: 25:05Nathan: Like, well, can I get people interested in this adventure story? And, and also, you know, teach people along the way that this stuff is really cheap and, you know, it's not it's not crazy rocket science if we can figure it out. So and at the time when we were doing this, like rooftop solar in the States was becoming much more prevalent because of various policies, the cost reduction and technology, new companies starting that will do this, this sort of these installations for people. Um, so the kind of panels that we had are the kind that you would put on a rooftop. We actually one of our sponsors was was a solar company in DC who, who does like Rooftop Home Solar. And they had some panels laying in the back room and he begged and pleaded and they said, sure, yeah, here's a couple hundred dollars with the panels. And so we yeah, because.

00: 26:03Julia: It can be dangerous for them as well, you know, like showing like it's actually quite cheap, but we still sell it for high price.

00: 26:11Nathan: Yeah. Yeah. The, the cost of the installations is the soft cost really. It's the licensing and it's the, the labor to get on the roof and do it. Um, but yeah. So we did, but we installed it all of ourselves. And to this day still like, people ask me to help, like to design a solar battery system and, you know, do that for a living in these African villages and stuff. But, you know, if it's just someone's like cabin hunting cabin or something in the US or whatever it is, my answer is always like, yeah, it's really cheap, just like you. I can advise you, but you'll have to do it yourself. And, um, you know, don't know if you'll be able to get insurance on your house, your property, have a licensed person come in and certify everything and whatever. So, so that's always my caveat, like, happy to help, but, uh, you have to pay these other costs, which will make it more expensive ultimately. Um, so yeah, but the the idea with the boat was we use off the shelf here that people could go and get themselves or have a, you know, have a company install on the roofs and not go with the. Very expensive, like sailing world stuff. Because if it's a boat, I mean, you know, you can get a rope at the, at the hardware store or you can get a boat rope and it might be quite the similar rope, but the boat rope is going to be five times more. So it's the same thing. So yeah, anything else? If it says boat on it just times. Yeah. It's like when you.

00: 27:52Julia: When you're getting married and then someone hears that you are getting married, everything becomes five times more expensive, right?

00: 27:58Nathan: Yeah, yeah. Oh okay. Well here's a cake. But it's a wedding cake, so.

00: 28:01Julia: Oh. Wedding cake. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

00: 28:03Nathan: No, it's this much. Yeah.

00: 28:05Julia: So plus people are, I guess, people, I guess, quite afraid to make the wrong choice. Or that there is a reason this must be so much better because it is a specialized thing, so I don't dare to do it. So, as always in life, it requires some either time or money to look into it or buy the expertise to yeah, become confident. I think confidence is really the core of the thing. Once you know how it works. Yeah, it becomes more easy or like yeah.

00: 28:39Nathan: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, if we if we add it up, the time and cost of like our learning journey and so this then yeah, it was a very expensive project. But we had a lot of fun and you.

00: 28:54Julia: Didn't have in mind to monetize it. I mean as far as I understand it right now.

00: 28:59Nathan: Yeah. No, I mean, that's that's funny because a lot of people back home would ask me that. Okay. So how are you going to make money on this? Like, well, we're not we're just yeah. Building this cool sailboat. And basically, you know, we threw fundraisers and stuff to buy gear. We had it donated to us, you know, so the idea was basically like, this is this could be a very fun adventure. And if we can get other people to subsidize it, that would be sweet. And obviously there's an educational mission to it. But, I mean, I've personally spent a lot of money on this project as well. But it was yeah, it was it was a master's degree and more the time and, and money we spent on this. And so we no, we didn't make any money. It never had any intention to make any money. Yeah. Just to, you know, do this cool project, um, and learn about these technologies ourselves, but then also go on a sweet adventure and yeah I think, like I said, you know, it was an educational experience that definitely 100% put me on a path to where I am now. Yeah.

00: 30:24Julia: And you never know what that is. That's why I said it's so cool that you just started this project and just let's let's see, let's where my interest draws me and I'm just doing it. And the cool thing is it brings us back to Cuba, to Cuba. And because and that's what I tried to understand like you wanted to find out how other countries are already using solar energy to Yeah, in coastal communities to get freedom from traditional electricity sources. So like, how did you come up with this Like, okay, I want to go on a sailing trip. How can we do it Or really, just like heard in Cuba, that's actually something quite cool going on. Let's go explore it.

00: 31:06Nathan: Yeah. Um, so that's exactly right. Our, our. So the boat idea is sort of kept expanding and growing. And, you know, as we're building this, this organization, thinking of what is the adventure, where is the story to tell? And Cuba, at that time, Americans haven't hadn't been able to visit there legally, except for some exceptions for decades. And at that time, Cuba was opening up. Um, there were new policies in place. Travel restrictions were were getting more or looser. And it was. Yeah, it was a time when people were very interested in Cuba, wanted to go visit what, you know, what's been going on there for the last 50 years or whatever, you know, since the embargo of it that was put on a country. So, so yeah, we were likewise just, you know, curious Americans that had never been to Cuba really thought about going to Cuba because it wasn't really an option unless you were like, I don't know, going down there for some professional work as a doctor or something, whatever it is. So, yeah, just kind of by happenstance, just we're learning about Cuba and. Oh, oh that's interesting. They have they have a power scarcity problems there. Oh, interesting. And the government is, is put, you know, committed to build a third of the country's energy is going to come from renewables in the next five years or whatever it was. And oh, interesting. Here's some projects that look very cool that we could go visit. And these beautiful, amazing places, you know, surrounded by lush greenery and very exotic. Yeah, yeah. So we're like, yeah, that's that just looks very cool to go visit. And um, and, and the story of, of renewables being a practical, affordable solution. Also very important because I mean, Cuba is not the richest country on the planet. We have quite a squeeze financially. And yet this is their solution for finding energy. Energy independence or energy sovereignty as they call it, is going going renewable. So like, oh, there's, there's a, there's a connection here. Um, so that so that being the idea, you know, this, this, this adventure, we've got this adventure, we have, we have this journey to get there on our own renewable energy project. We've got renewable energy projects to visit along the way. We even we even randomly found some. That was so cool. I remember we were sailing down through the Outer Banks in North Carolina and the wind was pumping like it was pretty scary. So so I would say like 70. I think I did the math ish 70% of the journey. We were on solar and our electric motor because the wind was just not great, but because think we got all of the wind in this one little pocket, all of the wind. And so we're terrified. So anyways, we pulled out for the night and we ended up in this place called Ocracoke Island and had never seen it on a map. No idea. We just saw a light in the distance. We're like, let's go there. That looks like somewhere we could stay for the night. So we did. Got up, learned about this is where Blackbeard the pirate, used to live and do all this lingering and like half of the people on the island are a relatives to the sailors of of the the Blackbeard clan. And we wandered around town and we were telling people, yeah, this is our solar boat journey. We brought people onto our boat and they were like, you know, we were giving tours and stuff, so random. And we wandered around. We were there for like two days because the wind was just still ripping. And and so we yeah, we, we were on like a local radio show, like no way. Yeah. Crazy. This tiny little, tiny little community. And we were telling everyone, yeah, we're looking for renewable projects along our journey to Cuba. Do you know of any. No, no, no it wasn't. And no, no one was like, oh, that's very cool. But no, we don't have anything like that here. But then on the very last day, we stopped in this antique shop and we, we were getting ready to go back to the boat and head out. And we the owner was like, oh yeah. Yeah, there's there's a big Tesla Powerwall battery backup station just over here behind that building. We're like, what? No way.

00: 36:07Julia: How did they not.

00: 36:08Nathan: Have this here? Nobody knew about it. So yeah, we went over there. We. Have time to set up a formal tour or anything like that. But this guy was very, I don't know, knowledgeable about the project. He went over there and, you know, this is this is a battery installation that was set up here this year because we get these blackouts during our storms. Sometimes the power cable to the to the land is, is damaged. And we had diesel generators, but they're very expensive and, you know, noisy and polluting and whatever. So now we have these battery systems and this is our practical solution to the power problem. And you know, that was really cool experience. And like yeah, well like we went around this community for, for two days telling people what we're looking for. And no one had a clue that this big thing is here. And this is what it's like powering their community during these emergency situations and thinking about that, like where? And it's all over the place, like there are these hidden projects that are that people don't even realize that are impacting their lives. And, and so kind of the, the mission to discover those. That was really exciting to us. And and you know, that opportunity to do that, we then we went out and did other renewable energy exploration elsewhere.

00: 37:39Julia: I think what I find very interesting about this is, you know, when you want to learn more about something, just go out in the world and see, like, what kind of practical solutions have others found that didn't have access to, I don't know, all knowledge sources that we have, but that still had to find a solution to an existing problem. So I find that very clever, you know. I know you didn't intend to do it that way specifically, but that's what you did, right? I'm also going to Cuba. Like. Okay, cool. You probably don't know a lot about this stuff. You just have this problem. It needs to be solved. There was a or I don't know, in Puerto Rico, you know, there's a hurricane. Yeah. And nothing works anymore. We need electricity. Like, how do we how do we solve that? And then looking or coming in like, okay, cool. That's actually a very clever idea. That's how you learn from nature as well. You know, when you go and look, I don't know, how can we fly? And then you look at bumblebees. Yeah. They able to fly and then learn from it. It's pretty similar.

00: 38:42Nathan: Yeah exactly. Mean people get creative when you have problems. But the thing that necessity is the mother of invention.

00: 38:50Julia: And yes, I.

00: 38:52Nathan: Mean, when you when you have problems like this, you know, these power outages or in Cuba situation, you know, you just have unreliable over overpriced. Electricity supply and you know, you have oil restrictions imposed on you. You have to find creative solutions. And same thing with the boat. The boat was there wasn't any solution other than like find our own solution or or just go without. And we wanted to go with. So we even had like on the boat, we had like a TV and Xbox that we would let people like, play video games, like, this is a solar powered video game.

00: 39:33Julia: Yeah, yeah, it's super cool. Yeah. And when, when constraints really are not there, like when you said, okay, as a house owner you have to think about insurance. But in a space of necessity or in a we know when it's very necessary to, to, to build something or activate something and you couldn't care less, you know, like all these things that we build on top of it like that, all the things that make you wonder, like, is it really possible they are gone and you actually have it stripped back to the core of what it is about, and then you can look at the solution. Again, I gave you this book essentialism. I think, you know, I'm a big, big fan of this, but think it speaks to this really looking at like if you strip everything away, all the parts. Yeah, but you need this, but you need this, but you need this. Because that's also one of the questions I wanted to ask you later. Um, because right now you're having these. It's not an audible. Now. Okay. We have to we have to go into this off grid solution of yours that you provide later. Yeah. But it's it's pretty much the same. You look at the core and you give it to them. And I wanted to ask later if there were no bots, like, how does the ideal world look like? Because I think it's such an interesting thought experiment of thinking. Okay, sure, lots of people don't want you there. There are lots of people that don't want to make this or see this coming to fruition. But what if it would, you know, there were no constraints?

00: 41:13Nathan: Yeah, absolutely. And mean I think just that idea of, of, um, having the audacity to try things that people think. I do remember that boat that we built, you know, I just, you know, it is. I go back to it so many times because it is such a core piece and element of my experience and where I am now and like, but that boat, we were building it in this and this Marina friend of mine and it was. Yeah, we were, we were welding pipes together and stuff and we were designing everything ourselves. And, and I remember some of the neighbor boats who'd been doing their own DIY projects for years. They're just like, oh, you know, that panel's not sitting right there. It's going to get blown off in the first gust of wind or, you know, oh, those batteries that you chose, that's ones it's going to burn the boat down. It's all these people. It's like, this is never going to work. Da da da da da. Like doubters, doubters, doubters. But I was there every single weekend for three months. You know, me and friends and putting together this boat and you know, I never thought ever. This isn't going to work. I knew this is going to work. And it may have some issues and we'll figure it out. And it did have issues which we figured out. But you know, we're going to do this because this is awesome. And, you know, just having that experience and then doing the mission and coming back to that Marina, you know, years later and we're like, yeah, remember that time that boat that wasn't going to work well all the way to Cuba and back? So yeah. But having that. Yeah, I guess that that that confidence or craziness to, to do that. Um, and sure, I've had other projects that that didn't necessarily succeed as this one did, but at least trying and, and learning lessons along the way is so super important. And you'll never get anywhere, um, new. And the, I don't know, outrageous and in my mind, exciting unless you push the boundaries and try to do new things.

00: 43:44Julia: And I think. What? Perhaps I'm wrong there, but what I think is the fact that you build it with your hands and therefore knew best if or if not, it will work and gives you everything you need to know about pushing through now in a project that is less tangible. I mean, sure, there are also components, but I'm not sure if you're building them yourself, but you somehow can now build something. Yeah, like a company that doesn't require you being at a boat and like using your hands to actually put things together. You now have to work with more, let's say complex streams of of work and have to bring them together. But having this knowledge of like what it what it takes to succeed and what it means to push through and to believe in your project, I can only imagine that that helps.

00: 44:40Nathan: Yeah, absolutely. We building the the boat and the NGO and you know that. That experience definitely has translated into building a company and finding a team and funding and corporate structures. And it's always learning as, as you know, every single day how to improve things or further the vision. But yeah, now it's a now it's a new audacious venture that isn't much about getting on my hands and knees and and cranking wrenches in the bowels of a of a but but still. A new challenge and you.

00: 45:33Julia: Big hairy audacious goal as you say, right? Yeah, I think that's how you call it. So then let's jump forward. So you went to Cape Town. That's where we met. You studied there nearly five years, right? So for four years, six months, at least that's on your CV.

00: 45:50Nathan: Yeah. Well, I'm still a student there.

00: 45:54Julia: Okay, okay.

00: 45:56Nathan: I, I the idea for Cape Town. Um. Well, can I just say where the spark was to move into this off grid sector in Africa was. So during the Cuba adventure and the journey, we actually got stuck in Florida for a while in, in the keys. In the Florida Keys. Because our Cuba connections during the Trump administration. The one. A couple of people on this team that were are are advocates and our sort of visa go to people got deported because of suspected espionage.

00: 46:51Julia: Oh wow. Okay.

00: 46:52Nathan: They were like, oh no, how are we going to do this now? Because you still had to get a visa, but it was just easier to get a visa. But then we needed to organize, like official visits to solar plants and stuff like this. So anyways, so we got stuck there. So. So the Vitoria mission was on pause a little bit while we sorted out this visa situation. But in the meantime Hurricane Maria ripped through Puerto Rico and. And I remember, like, talking to my journalist friends. And I said, you guys, you should go tell a story about renewable energy supplying critical infrastructure and things like this in in Puerto Rico, like how is renewable energy impacting the the emergency disaster situation? Because, you know, just through over our experience, we knew that big battery plants and solar panels and whatever, like can supply reliable energy in events of of a natural disaster. So but then the response was no way like. The solar panel fields and the wind turbine fields, and everything must be destroyed by the hurricane. Because every story was about blackout, blackout like disaster, and Puerto Rico like, you know, world historical sort of events of chaos and destruction. Like there's some there's a good story. There's a positive story here. You guys are not finding it. So then I took it upon myself to start looking at, um, geospatial satellite imagery of what has before after impacts of the hurricane, like just a few days after it happened. And you can see there like, that's a solar field and it's fine. That's you know, that's a those are wind turbines and they're they, they're still there. Um, so then we started calling people and, and finding projects and ended up going to Puerto Rico, roped in some allies that do climate communications work and took like a film crew down there. And then we went and found renewable energy projects powering fire stations and hospitals and community centers. And these microgrids that I'd never really heard about was a microgrid. It's it's a it's a solar battery installation with inverters and stuff that connects multiple points within a, within a community. So, you know, maybe it's a couple houses and a, you know, some shop and, and a in a hospital or something like this. Um, but then that idea of like, wow, okay. So this stuff is like super duper practical hurricane proof, even that it can, um, that it can power life saving services. That's that's that's that's amazing. Like, where else in the world are they doing these microgrid things? And in, in the Western world, you know, in Europe and the US, microgrids are often on military bases. They're at universities, stuff like this, like backup emergency power systems. But then looking at how are people using this as a new tool for electrification? And in Africa and in South Asia, this is where people, you know, there's almost a billion people that don't have electricity around the planet still. And there are technologies and companies out there that are building rural remote electrification strategies using these microgrids instead of huge grid infrastructure projects that are taking, you know, transmission towers and huge power cables and stuff like that to get electricity out to the most remote parts of the, of the world. Um, and, and, and that, you know, in my mind, is a brilliant way that we could, we could tap into the power of renewable energy for a better planet and reduce, you know, the, the impact of huge infrastructure projects. And, you know, one super costly two, there's a lot of corruption that goes on there. Three um, it's not even that reliable. I live in South Africa and we have loadshedding all the time. Yes. Absolutely huge. Yeah, obviously you've seen it, but yeah, huge grid infrastructure here. And it's I mean it doesn't even work. And now now. Places in California that experience wildfires. South Africa with the load shedding. Australia with like remote areas that it doesn't make sense to really pay for the upkeep of transmission lines and stuff like this. They're going towards microgrids now. They are they're now building this stuff that, you know, retroactively going backwards ish and building these local distributed renewable energy projects. Because did you make.

00: 52:03Julia: The did you make the connection, like being in Puerto Rico, like you have had this experience and you went to Cape Town and you had the load shedding and realized, okay, the problem is actually everywhere. Or did you come to Cape Town because you wanted to? Like explore this. This.

00: 52:20Nathan: Yeah. So. So after seeing the microgrids in Puerto Rico and the practical nature of those and then finding out where else are they building these sort of things and seeing in Africa, this is this is like a new, new way of developing electricity supply in rural areas. That's when I was thinking, oh, okay, I want to be a part of that. Okay. And that brought me to Cape Town. So I had I visited Cape Town many years ago, um, and loved it. Fell in love. What a beautiful place. And, you know, I was ready for something different after the boating experience. I was I was still I was doing the boating thing, but I was also running a non-profit that focused on national security, foreign policy issues in DC. We we did a lot of work with congressional staffers on like, legislative negotiations as a bipartisan organization. I'm very much of the mind of, yeah, that we we as Americans and policy space can get along if we find the right messengers and messages. So was working on that. But uh, but the the work there just it didn't it didn't stand up to how excited and my passion for the renewable energy stuff. So yeah. So that's when I was like, okay, I need to do something different. How do I do this kind of Vitoria esque work somewhere else full time and make that my career? That was the jump to Cape Town. I'm going to go to the engineering school here. I'm going to be in Africa. I'm going to meet the people that are building these projects. I'm going to find my place somehow. So. So yeah, that's what brought me to Cape Town and doing the university as my sort of landing pad training.

00: 54:22Julia: In network learning more about.

00: 54:24Nathan: Yeah, it building a whole new network like this is an entirely different space than what I was doing in Washington. So like starting from scratch, which is also pretty terrifying. Like when I'm 33, it's already had a whole career and I had a trajectory and, you know, a network and everything like that. But just like, well, I either I'm going to do this forever or it's time to switch now because I still have time and I have the energy to make a change. So that was yeah, that was the big leap of faith. And but then, yeah, through I met the right people. I interviewed all kinds of developers of these projects all over the continent. And I met technology experts and finance experts and regulators and everything else. And so through that experience, a year in proposed a a project, a business concept to the government, the energy catalyst program and and was awarded. So you know the the then hence why I'm still a student because I still owe that dissertation. But I'm also running a company and another company hired me.

00: 55:41Julia: You're actually running two companies, right?

00: 55:43Nathan: Well, I work at one as the head of mini grids and asset finance. That is very time consuming and a lot of responsibility there focused on financing elements. And then my own company, I run that with a co-founder, one of my Vitoria energy expedition colleagues. So we co-founded this company together, and we have a small team of five of us now. And yeah, so running that like 40 hours a week and then working in another company 30 hours a week and sometimes I sleep.

00: 56:19Julia: Yeah. And go kitesurfing.

00: 56:20Nathan: Right. Kitesurfing. Yes. Now it's.

00: 56:23Julia: Rugby games.

00: 56:25Nathan: Now it's the season for that. Yes. So that's, that's that's my remaining connection to the ocean. Life like don't sail anymore but I, I still have it's still I'm still on the water.

00: 56:37Julia: Yeah. And I think there Cape Town is a very good choice because you don't have to go on holidays to do it. You just take two hours and actually go. So that's pretty. Yeah.

00: 56:46Nathan: Exactly. Exactly.

00: 56:48Julia: Yeah. Okay, good. So sustain solar is your day job. Let's say it's a very exciting obviously task that you have there. But your own company is still Victoria Electronics Victorian technology. Technology. You know what I told you? It was very exciting to to research everything because it's it's once you got it, it's really easy to understand, but there's so many different names that you have to get right along the way. And like I tell you. Because. Yeah. Yeah. Because now you have created something that is called a sustain box. It's even trademarked. And you have had a very exciting project in 2022, in Uganda, where you now power five clinics. Is that correct? So perhaps you can quickly tell us like what is a sustain box? How does it work there? And like perhaps how did this project in Uganda look like.

00: 57:45Nathan: Yeah. So so the sustain box, this is actually a sustained solar that um, it's it's a turnkey system. So I guess I'll just talk a bit about what Sustain Solar does. They do turnkey systems which they, they build a micro grid in a box basically. So there are sizes where you have this container like a 20 foot shipping container. And inside of it you build basically the same thing we had as on Vitoria solar panels, batteries, inverters, wiring, etcetera. But it's much bigger. And and then the sustain box is a smaller version of that that can reach, you know, clinics and hospitals and things like this. So the big container is used for like a whole village electrification. So you open this container, pull out all these panels, you put it together like an Ikea piece of furniture, you know, connect this, flip this, whatever. There's someone on the phone that's instructing the local technician how to do this. Install the solar panels, plug it all together. Boom. Now you have community electrification, and depending on the size of these systems, they can power like thousands of homes. And then the same box is an other, another um unit that is much smaller. But this thing can be put on a boat, like a fishing boat and taken to these clinics in Uganda. They're all on islands, and so you can't reach that with a huge container, but you can with these little boxes. So, I mean, we have a partner there who actually does the installations and saw how they moved it around. And they had like these fishing boats and they, you know, have the sustain box, which is kind of like a filing cabinet size wise, but it's full of an inverter and battery and wires and stuff like this. And then so they put that there, and then there's guys on like bicycles with solar panels like wow, that's very interesting. So these things, you know, they're powering these clinics that they that didn't have any power. Um, and, and also water filtration systems for purified water. Otherwise people, you know, had to like boil the water and stuff like this to make it safe and drinkable. Um, and what's cool also about it is it's remote like, like remote monitoring. So we can see the systems from here in Cape Town and, um, we can see make sure it's online or, you know, detect any problems. And then they're pretty simple systems. So like the even the clinic staff is trained like flip the switch or that or whatever. And a lot of the troubleshooting and fixes they can do on site there, um, anything major that our local partner has to go out there, but it's like six hour trip to get to some of these islands. So it's it's quite far. So it's really important to have reliable systems. And that's another element going back to the Victoria about like reliability. You know other people would be like well our solar panels reliable. Is this renewable stuff really reliable. And we're like we're out in the middle of the ocean powering this journey or putting our lives in the hands of this technology that we've put together, you know, through our training or learnings. And yeah, so that was another thing. It's just proving like, yeah, it is reliable and we trust this stuff. And like we were out. I don't know, you know. 80 miles offshore. I remember for like two days there was no wind at all. It was crazy. We were out. This was after the huge storm. And then we're like. And then there was no wind. And we're out in the middle of the ocean on this electric motor. Just plug it along and there's dolphins and sea turtles. And it was amazing. We're like, wow, okay, this is really testing this, this whole renewable energy thing that we're promoting. And yeah, it worked. And so knowing that, you know, and having the confidence in the technology, we can we can power hospitals, clinics, whatever in remote parts of Africa because it works and we can see it. So that's yeah that's the sustain box. And then the other one is the the containerized sustained compact. So that's that's what sustain solar So these are turnkey systems.

01: 02:20Julia: What do they do for these communities I mean having power in a clinic or not obviously it seems very straightforward that this makes a huge difference. But because I think understanding the impact is so powerful, perhaps you can tell us quickly, like having these off grid solutions, like what kind of difference can that make?

01: 02:41Nathan: Yeah. So there's all these sustainable sustainable development goals that's very, you know, high level international targets and trajectory of of no poverty, um, decent economic wages and, you know, workforce and opportunities, healthier lifestyles etcetera. And and so they're big lofty goals. But what it means on the ground is like people can have refrigeration or their crops and things like this. There's a huge problem across the continent of of food wastage. And so, you know, for personal self consumption and as well as selling product like without refrigeration, things go bad pretty quickly. And, you know, you lose a huge majority of your, your output. Um, so addressing that you need electricity. So, you know, the power systems that we supply can power refrigeration, freezing things like this. Health and and air quality is also a topic that are a challenge that these renewable solutions address by enabling electric cooking. So a lot of places still use wood and charcoal. And it's delicious for a braai, you know, here and there and you kind of, you know.

01: 04:19Julia: Barbecue in South African. Just a barbecue.

01: 04:22Nathan: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Um, but but daily use of it and especially like cooking indoors with this stuff impacts air quality and, you know, results in a lot of like lung diseases and things for women and children. And, you know, whoever else is in the house during the cooking. So, um, so allowing enabling electric cooking, electric pressure cookers and things like this which are succeeding here and there, um, that, you know, that that addresses the health aspect. And then also another really important aspect that didn't really get, um, about electric cooking until I was in Zambia was that the harvesting of wood? The making of charcoal. What you do is you cut down trees and then you you start a fire with the wood, and then you bury it, and then you just let it smolder there. And as it's smoldering, like there's little flames and stuff and it catches, catches the, the felt on fire. And you have just all these little like random fires everywhere and, and so on. The NBA, it's just on the side of the road, just like everywhere. It's just like fires, whatever. For forest fires I'm like, this is very strange. And it also like really depletes the vegetation. You know, if you're running around cutting down trees all the time, like we actually need that as a carbon sink. So we we need forests. And if it's turning into cooking fuel then yeah, that's a problem. So that's another thing that that electric cooking addresses. And that's a really important one for me, especially considering my, my, my work on climate change and sort of ecology space. So there's there's human impacts, there's environmental impacts. And you know, and then obviously at the clinics too, you know, cold chain for vaccines, making sure that you can people can keep vaccines on site to address issues, health issues in the field. And these are very, very rural rural communities. So getting kind of supplies is like very hard, um, lights at night or mothers giving birth. Um, also job creation, as I mentioned, a lot of agricultural activities going on in these places. And they they harvest the products, but then someone else comes and picks it up and takes it to the next place, and then they get the value add. Yeah. Benefits because they.

01: 07:11Julia: Cannot refrigerate it and keep it fresh.

01: 07:14Nathan: Because of refrigeration. And then also like let's say, you know, maize, you know, you're growing a bunch of corn and um, someone will collect it, they'll bring it somewhere and then they'll mill it and then put it in a bag and then sell it back to the people that just sold them the corn. So and they've got this like value add element there. So localizing that sort of value add opportunity. So powering those electric grain mills and things or what's another one like oil presses for sunflower seeds or something. So finding opportunities for people to make a living where they are and mean having a much different situation, but like being someone that grew up in a rural area in America and I can I can relate like there's there's not really much opportunity there that I was interested in. So then I went off to the big city. And the same thing happens in rural communities in Africa. And I mean, I've met people that have done they've gone like, for example, to Cape Town and then back to the sky in the Eastern Cape. And, you know, there's I don't know, I've met a lot of people like, I would love to live here, but there's not much opportunity in, you know, don't really know what I'm going to do. And I've met people who've gone to the big city, hated it, moved back here like, I love it here. And I'm just like, you know, wish there was more to do, but I'm not I'm not going back to the city. That wasn't that was me. Whatever. So, you know, I mean, trying to find ways to to realize that for people and help people realize that mean if if going to the city is just a means to an end, how do you how you know, can we can we help them find that means like locally? And yeah. So think those are just some of the impacts that the rural electrification projects are having that we're having. But also to note that governments and have have an international and local have committed to electrify everyone. So the question is not like if, but how? And we believe that distributed renewable energy is a sustainable way to do it, is going to have less environmental impact, is going to be more empowering for local communities. They, you know, have they have a voice? Within those communities and to the suppliers. So the people that build these renewable energy projects, like we supply the system, but the people that own and run these, the micro utilities are companies there that are founded by, you know, bleeding hearts like myself. You find sustainable energy solutions for rural communities. They build these systems, power lines, whatever they maintain them. But they answer, you know, they they do run it as a social enterprise for profit that has to make money to keep the thing running. But the people, they're the locals like, you know, customers have a voice to, to within or to the the operators to the micro utilities. Whereas, you know, Eskom doesn't care if I have a power outage like they don't answer to, to the communities, don't feel like so. And it's the same thing in these other countries.

01: 10:46Julia: So it's com being an electricity provider. Yeah. Yeah yeah I think the because the local communities play such a huge part. They have to adapt the solution that you offer them or they have to take it, take it in. So I guess lots of your work is also researching really and finding these opportunities, like how can this really help and set precedents of like, okay, look, I don't know, giving birth becomes more or less risky for women here. That's how you can all of a sudden. Yeah. What you said. I love that about when going to the cities is just a means to an end. How can we bring meaning to the rural areas? I really love that and really showcasing, okay, that really can be a benefit because I can only imagine there are so many Western people coming in and telling them, like, we have the solution and they're like, what do you want here?

01: 11:43Nathan: Yeah, that's that's definitely one of the big problems is, is that, you know, it's like, um, you know, foreigner coming in and, and, you know, trying to implement technologies that maybe locals like don't care about. So that is obviously, you know, very sensitive to that. And and that's why I mean, like we don't parachute in and build any projects that are not needed. Like yeah, it's all that's why we have local partners in every country. They're their own company. Like we have nothing, you know, like influence or role in those companies. But they are companies, local companies, you know, founded and staffed by both internationals, but then local teams as well that understand those communities that know the needs that are there in person, like, you know, engaging with, with, with people. So, you know, we supply the technology and then what's done with it, that's all. You know, that's at the community level. Um, yeah. And and it's not. Yeah. It changes depending on country. And even like within a country, certain communities have certain preferences and needs and things like this. And and. Yeah. So that's that's definitely a challenge. And when. And this is an interesting space because it has a lot of like there's there's social elements to it. There's the technology elements, the finance. There's sort of the politics of it all. And this electrification space results in a lot of interest and, and research from the international community. And like there's all these reports and, you know, projects, pilot projects that involves a lot of pilot projects and studies and trying to understand, you know, what does this stuff do on the ground? Because we have these lofty ideas and goals and the sustainable development goals of the UN. But like, how do you what does this actually mean on the ground within a community? And, you know, you see different impacts where but. I think that's another thing that I work on at Victoria Technology is this is about scalable systems, because if you go into somewhere and you bring electricity and you have all these visions like, oh, we're going to like, you know, dish out refrigerators and electric pressure cookers and, you know, mills and all these other things, welders. And it's going to be awesome. But then you find that, oh, actually, like one like it's a little bit overkill for this particular community to, you know, it takes time for people to kind of get used to changes what.

01: 14:42Julia: We.

01: 14:42Nathan: Do.

01: 14:43Julia: Yeah.

01: 14:44Nathan: Yeah. And I mean, like, you know, I mean, people obviously are even in rural areas are connected to the world. And they, they have Facebook and stuff and they see like, oh yeah, I want a toaster. I want a big screen TV. That's awesome. Um, but then the reality of it is like, uh, you know, they do cost money and the local economy isn't quite there to support those sort of appliance uptake. And so what we do with the vitreous stuff is we only supply batteries, but we supply batteries in a way and technologies that are scalable over time. So, so we we work with those local developers who go in there and they assess, you know, community needs. And then we supply like this much battery, this a little bit of battery start. And then over time with experience of the operators and the communities and stuff, they they grow their utilization of the renewable energy. And um, and then, you know, it, we're trying to support a way that makes it affordable, makes it sustainable, makes it scalable, and and, you know, the vision of what can the stuff do is, is up here, you know, it's high level. But the getting there takes time. And we recognize that. And we're trying to do it in a way that is affordable and grows with the communities sort of approach to it. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

01: 16:29Julia: So is that like because that's the work that you do with battery Bank Africa? Yes. As part of the technology is that are you laying the basis there for a mini grid structure in the future? Is that how I, how you could translate that?

01: 16:46Nathan: Yeah. So so I'm really lucky I get to work at these two companies because the one company, um, I find that our clients are more the scaling companies that that are trying to build a lot of systems and, and try to do it, like quickly and get things up and running and operating. And for them, the containerised system makes a lot of sense because it just, you know, we build it here in Cape Town, send it there, drop it open, plug things in. Boom. But then there's other companies that are are smaller companies or, you know, they have a different philosophy to their their business approach. And they use kind of piecemeal stuff like we did an arbitrary, you know, they they're going to get that, you know, panel from whatever supporter they can get it from. And they're getting, you know, their inverters and whatever kind of piecing stuff together. Um, and, and for them, you know, the battery is the most expensive piece of it and the most complex. So with battery Bank Africa, we're serving that market, um, that isn't going out to buy the turnkey systems. It's just kind of doing the piecemeal stuff. And what we're doing is we're we're taking on the risk and the, the technology challenge of the batteries and the financing of the batteries for these, for these companies. And, you know, when I was talking earlier, we were talking about sort of the audacity of trying and, you know, the the risks and the taking on the criticism and just, you know, going ahead. Anyways, one of the problems not problem, but challenge of what we do and, and this kind of model is we get investors, we buy batteries and we, we send the batteries to the field and the question and so, you know, we are a social enterprise as well. So we are a for profit company so that we can sustain this model. Um, but we have to be confident that the. Community and the operators. The micro utility operators can can pay the leases on these batteries. So we do it at at least model and and so that's that makes our job really. Um, you know, it's critical for us to understand these local dynamics and contexts and projections. And you know, if a, if a company says we're going to do all this stuff with electricity and we're going to make all this revenue, then we have to really kind of look at the numbers like, I mean, you know, we understand this stuff. Like, you know, that's not going to work or maybe this, this particular community that's going to work. And we have to sort of read a crystal ball and see, can can these places afford to use our service and.

01: 19:50Julia: Gain experience, enough experience to not having to rely on looking in a crystal ball but, you know, making. Yeah. Funded um, calculations.

01: 20:01Nathan: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So I mean, you know, it's it's. Yeah. It's we want to. We got into this because mean we're not making a whole bunch of money, but we are having an impact and we want to have an impact. Build a sustainable business and grow it. Um, so, yeah, we're we're we're working through the, the sort of growing pains and trying to learn that we just deployed batteries right now are in refugee clinic in Rwanda. And, and we're using this new battery concept that uses lead acid batteries and lithium ion batteries. And there's certain characteristics and pricing and performance that, that we've we've sort of analyzed and how these things work together. And and it's it's a one of our innovations to bring more affordable energy to, to these communities. And yeah, that's that's super exciting because for battery Africa, that's our first lease. Like we've done a lot of technology trials and stuff and given batteries away to, you know, to clinics and things. Um, we have a project in Sierra Leone. It's currently powering health facility. Uh, but now we're actually trying to make a business out of it. And we've been able to do this all because of financial support from international governments. Um, from the French, from UK. Uh, USAID supports this kind of work. Um, Norwegian government and etcetera. So yeah, without them, the, our company and these kind of companies like wouldn't exist because yeah, it's a, it's a high risk space that can only, can only succeed with like, you know, government funds and subsidies to start things. But the way that it's working now is way better than it used to be. I mean, when I was working in the foreign policy space, you know, there is for decades there's been, um, international development projects that have, you know, built schools and hospitals and renewable whatever, you know, energy projects and, and but they've been done in a way that's not sustainable at all. It's kind of like parachuting and you build a thing and it's this kind of maybe this problem that you were talking about, like, how do you know what the community needs? But it was rather just sort of, you know, government programs like, well, you know, this this community needs a clinic. Here's a clinic. Boom. And not really having like a sustainable model to staffing it and training people and keeping, you know, making it economically viable over time and stuff. So you saw billions and billions of dollars in international development funds just going towards projects that crumbled after a couple of years and do see it. Um, you know, when I'm out in the field places with old junky like renewal of solar panels or something from 20 years ago that don't work anymore. And that's another problem that we face is like because of these poorly run projects for decades, people like, no, don't want I don't want solar, I want grid, I want real electricity because these things collapse and like left a bad taste in people's mouths. So we have to deal with that perception challenge as well and show like, no, these things do work and we have a sustainable model. We will keep electricity on. You pay for it. We keep it on. That's a good partnership. Um, that's, you.

01: 23:56Julia: Know, when you lose the trust, I mean, that's you sometimes get another shot, but it's understandable that they obviously when 20 years ago they were promised something that you first of all have to invest in education again and like building trust, building relationships with these communities. That's why it's a very good idea to have these local contacts that actually do the convincing for you.

01: 24:21Nathan: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So I mean, while I say that, you know, we're we're supported by the international governments, you know, this is like a new vision, the new approach that now instead of spending those dollars and funds on, you know, projects that aren't aren't really going to last very long, fortunately, they're seeing the need for the private sector to come in and to be the on the ground players and to to build these projects and sustain these projects and come up with sustainable business models that are actually going to keep keep these things up and running for decades. So, so that's yeah, that's great. And we're we're definitely very fortunate that. That is now the way that this works.

01: 25:08Julia: Yeah, exactly. Plus, I mean, you see, with sustained solar, there is money to be earned. This is a very exciting factor. As you mentioned, the 17 sustainability development goals from the UN. Um, number seven, goal number seven is affordable and clean energy. I know that's what you're working on. And the world Bank says that mini grids are the least cost electrification solution for half of sub-Saharan Africa, so it can connect 600 million unconnected people, like the population of over 600 million people. So I guess you're on the right path. I guess you found the thing that is, um, is the future. So I think that is very exciting and can only grow from where you are now.

01: 25:54Nathan: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, what's what's super cool about it also, I mean, I mentioned in the states and other places, communities and companies. ET cetera. Are going to microgrids for reliability sake and, and think that's that's great. And that is going to continue to be a path that we see across the world. So many there's so many things though. I'm just thinking of another thing that so many things that have sort of inspired this idea of vision. And another one actually is a former CIA director that I worked with on Capitol Hill. Remember, as I was an energy policy staffer, he he was a big advocate for these kind of localized energy resources. And, you know, if it's some place with sun, solar places, wind, it's wind someplace with a bunch of coal. Okay, cool. Um, this is my favorite, but localizing energy security. Yeah. And you know, that being a national security prerogative for the United States was his vision. But that applies to the whole world. And and in these places that are now building microgrids, that's the vision they're pursuing. And they're they're doing solar and they're doing the batteries and whatever. And like and they're seeing that makes sense, actually to build with local, reliable electricity sources rather than this huge power line that goes to some, yeah, some power plants, you know, hundreds of miles away that between here and there there could be a storm or a fire or, you know, just poor maintenance of the distribution network. And that's going to go, you know, that's going to go down. So it's awesome to see that other countries are doing this that are already like 100% electrified. They're even doing microgrids. Yeah. What's cool here. And so yeah, I don't know, I kind of thought at one point, like when I came here, like I'll go learn about mini grids, microgrids, and then what I learned, I can take it back and start a cool company that's doing this stuff in, in the US or something. Um, but now that I'm here and, you know, there's like this awesome opportunity to build something new and build it right the first time and to be part of this. Pioneering sector that is, is trying to achieve the seemingly impossible. And if we're able to build these microgrids that are reliable, that are affordable, that are impactful for decades, then, you know, I think that in my mind, like, this is just how you should power the world. You don't actually need to interconnect everyone to big power plants and stuff. That's sure. Maybe in like big cities and stuff. Yeah, it makes sense. But a lot of places with the right technologies and and affordability like this is how the planet can address a lot of, you know, our carbon emissions. And then also there's the reliability factor and other things. And yeah, distributed renewable energy is not just the future. It's happening now and making it very apparent. And clear that it works and it is sustainable, is hopefully going to shift mindsets away from huge infrastructure problems. And and you know, I think there's like I said earlier, there's a lot of corruption involved. There's a ton of wasted, wasted money. And it's, you know, taxpayer dollars from all over the planet going into these over cost, you know.

01: 30:03Julia: Building something that is not even needed, like something that is not even the solution to our problems.

01: 30:09Nathan: Yeah, exactly. So if we if we get it right, then hopefully they'll just be a lot more resources available for other good things.

01: 30:18Julia: Yeah, yeah. So then let me come back to the question I, I mentioned in the middle of our interview. So if you, if this is the dream and if, let's say all the things that could hold you back, you mentioned corruption. You mentioned the problem of adoption. You mentioned, like all the wasted money that goes in different projects. If that was not a problem at all, in an ideal world, what would happen and how would yeah, what would you do? How would the world look like?

01: 30:49Nathan: Well, yeah. In my my little corner of the world and the micro grid space, I think what we would see is achievement of that electrification goal and those numbers that the world Bank listed. And, you know, we would we would have, um, these rural communities with their own isolated renewable energy systems, running productive, happy communities with good, you know, good local job opportunities. And, you know, the ideas of electric cooking takes, takes place. You know, that that helps to reduce deforestation. We have, you know, reliable local health care access in these places. And we we hopefully see acknowledgement, recognition of the need and the importance of like the private sector micro utilities that are operating these things. And also those guys and gals are building jobs like those are job creators too. And what's really cool is, is those jobs, many of them are in the local community. So you get like customer service people. You have like local technician people checking on the batteries and whatever. And so those are job creators. And, you know, it's important, I think, that the recognized how the private sector can supply reliable, affordable electricity on the whole continent. Um, you know, and in the US, like we do have more of a private sector role in, in the electricity space. And we have, you know, they are kind of the regional monopolies that that run the power grids and stuff like this. But you see a lot of like decoupling. And now they're allowing independent producers of, of solar electricity to build a solar farm and then sell it into the grid, which the grid is owned by a monopoly, whatever. But there's there's way more private sector role and activity in other parts of the world. And as far as I can tell, it's proven that that that approach really improves the the reliability of service and and the cost, like the cost in South Africa, for example, mean to the end user. Well, it's still more expensive than the US, although it's crazy subsidized. So. What is the price of electricity here? Without the subsidy? I don't even know. But it must be massive. And it only works half the time. So yeah, kind of a recognition for these private micro utilities to operate these systems, you know, a successful deployment of them across the continent, achieving the Sustainable Development Goals and vision by electricity access and just yeah, mean think a recognition around the world of like what how these how this technology is powering Africa and how lessons can be learned to also improve their accessibility in more developed countries.

01: 34:19Julia: Likewise by localizing how we consume electricity at the moment based on what is available in the specific regions and making and using this.

01: 34:31Nathan: Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's I can nerd out on the technology itself. Well, like there's like cool hydro turbines and these, these like loading excuse the waves.

01: 34:44Julia: Right.

01: 34:45Nathan: Yeah. The waves, they look like a snake and they kind of just go up and down with the waves. Kites. People are using kites for power as well. Like think this one. I think there's a couple of Dutch companies that are using these massive kites that are similar to the kiteboarding kites, and they chuck them in the air, and then they just kind of pivot. And that motion, whatever's going on inside the machine, is generating electricity in some turbine fashion. And it's super cool. You know, it's like Jules Verne stuff that people are coming up with to, to build new and interesting creative ways of capturing the renewable resources of wind and solar, etcetera. Water around the world to to find solutions that make sense for localized energy generation. And yeah, it's, it's it's all super exciting. And I think there's, there's, there's a lot of opportunity and development coming down the road.

01: 35:51Julia: Yeah. I think what I find most exciting to learn is there is a solution out there, like in many other areas where we think we have unsolvable problems. Yes, there are some hurdles to be taken, but there is a way forward and there are lots of people fighting to actually make that possible. So thank you very much for sharing. Yeah, your path, your journey, giving us an insight there. And yeah, educating us about mini grids and how they work and what benefits they can bring to Africa and the world.

01: 36:26Nathan: It's a pleasure. And and I hope there is a couple of interesting nuggets in the conversation. Sure.

01: 36:32Julia: For sure, for sure. Thank you very much, Nathan. This was really, really insightful. Yeah.

01: 36:38Nathan: It's good.