#23 Javeriah Farrukh: How to ask for a seat at the table

00: 00:00Julia: Today. I'm very happy to have you here, Jev. You are at the moment in Canada, which is pretty cool because we got to know each other in 2017, in California, where we both did the SAP Sales Academy. So for both of us, I think it was a life changing experience. but I think most probably it was even a little bit more life changing for you because you're originally from Pakistan, where, yeah, seeing women in tech is not as usual as it is perhaps in in Europe, where we have, I don't know, 10% of women in the field still not a lot. But so I think it's changing. But nonetheless, it's pretty, pretty cool to see. Um, perhaps let's start where you stand right now. How would you describe your job or your position to someone that is not in the tech sector or in sales?

00: 01:01Jeveriah: Well, first of all, thank you for having me and summarizing you know how we've known each other. It really does feel like another lifetime ago. Um, so I am based out of Toronto and I work with SAP Canada. I work in sales. And really what that means is I sell enterprise software to organizations in Canada. That's the easiest way to describe what I do. Of course, it's it takes a lot of other skills to be able to do that. Um, I've grown wiser over the years. Hopefully still a lot to learn. But the best thing about my job is that it's always, uh. It's always. There's always something new. It's not repetitive. I'm always working with people. I think that's why I got into it. And it's safe to say that's why I stuck around.

00: 01:58Julia: Um, yeah. I think that's a really, really cool thing about sales, because I think when I started out, um, I remember exactly I was thinking about the sales academy, like, what? Will I be good at sales? I'm not sure. I love, you know, building relationships with people I love Um, yeah Getting getting to know some stuff and, like, dig my myself in and learn about tech because I didn't study tech. I don't know, I think you didn't study tech as well.

00: 02:25Jeveriah: Business. Yeah.

00: 02:27Julia: Which is great because I think sales somehow gives you, if you are a hard worker and someone that is willing to do, to put the work in a chance to look into an industry that you're actually interested in.

00: 02:40Jeveriah: Absolutely. Yeah. And I've learned so much about myself in the last seven years, you know, and I did before that. Obviously it's I think it is also a function of the job that I do. I'm, like I said, constantly interacting with people and different people. And so I'm constantly adapting to what would work in a certain situation, what wouldn't work in a certain situation, what leadership style is better? Um, so you're right, it gives us a chance to look into ourselves and also learn more about us i guess.

00: 03:15Julia: And when you look back at the very beginnings you said you've learned a lot throughout the last years, how would you say you approach it differently now? In the beginning, probably it's this. Okay, I remember to give you an example in the sales conversations that I had in the very beginning, I used to always try to answer questions very, very quickly because that felt very competent. And it took a while to slow down and shut up and like, listen more. Um, I guess that's one thing that you most probably learned as well. Is there something else that an experienced seller is doing differently than a junior?

00: 03:56Jeveriah: That obviously active listening, listening more and listening often and listening intently to understand what are people really seeing? What do they really want and how can I help or enable that or them? So that's one thing. The other thing is the ability to take calculated risks, like what is the right opportunity to do something versus wait. A lot of time where I used to do this, like look for perfection. I want this to be right and I want it to be perfect before I'm ready to say something or launch something or, you know, present something. But there is no such thing as perfect. It has to be good. It has to be up to a certain standard. And once it meets that standard, you have to go ahead and just do that thing. The ability to take risk, like I was also very risk averse. I wasn't sure if I wanted to take up a job that I knew nothing about. Like I did not, like you said, come from the tech industry. I had studied business in college. I was very nervous when I joined the academy, but, you know, it worked out. I was very nervous when I was deciding to move from Pakistan to Canada. It was a very big move and it was happening during Covid. Oh yeah, I wasn't sure how it would work out, but I think the ability to take risk is something that my career has taught me. Because no cell cycle is the same, no cell cycle will, you know. And the way you, you, you thought it would. And so in between the cell cycle and generally before and after it, even in our job, we take these small calculated risks to move the needle and think same is true for life.

00: 05:46Julia: Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. I think in the beginning also, you first of all have to concentrate on all the different things that are happening. So you have to get to know yourself in the role. You have to gain trust. You have to focus on how do I deliver the presentation to explain tech in a simple way, so the customers actually believe it and buy it. So, you know, don't focus on the functions but on the benefits, um, you know, these kind of things. And once you've got that figured out, you can probably go much more easy in a, in a sales situation and actually focus on taking risks, because before I had the feeling everything feels like a risk because you are putting yourself out there with no knowledge, like let not no knowledge, no experience and like, how is this going to pan out? And so yeah, I love that you say taking risks because it's something I'm working on at the moment You know, like there are the things where you you've taken risks, you've seen it works, but actually taking risks where The chances of winning are not, let's say, 80%, but more 20%. That is when it becomes very, very difficult. And especially as an entrepreneur, like what I do right now, you have to put yourself out there to and get, I don't know, judged. Yeah. That brings me a little bit back to your origin coming from Pakistan. You wrote in an article or I think you were in an interview or something where someone asked you how that was, and you said that you actually faced lots of adversary when when you taught or told people that you wanted to be in tech. How did that feel for you? How did you know that you actually wanted to pursue this career?

00: 07:48Jeveriah: Well, I'll start with the second part of your question because it's the easier answer. I didn't know I want it to be in this career, to be honest. Okay. When I applied, it was just a chance decision. I actually was or I thought I was going to post-grad. I, you know, had submitted my applications and was just waiting in between. So saw the opportunity come up for the sales academy and applied without thinking, which in retrospect, I shouldn't have done. It was such a great opportunity. I should have known and thought more about it. But anyway, I applied, went through the recruitment process, got the job and the moment the offer came in was also around the same time that my business school was applying to waitlisted me. And you know, they're like, you know, retake your and you know, you could apply, reapply, blah, blah, blah. And I don't think mentally I was willing to do that anymore. I like the opportunity that lay ahead of me within, you know, this career, the Academy was a great launching pad. Um, so that decision was just made easy for me, I guess, because things just took a natural course without me planning finding that out as such. Um, coming to the first part of your question, you know, did I face any adversity? To be very honest, Julia, when I look at things in the larger context of where I was, I was very privileged. I've led a very privileged life in the context of where I was born and where I grew up. I had access to a great education. I had access to resources. Um, I was I had the ability to travel. So I had a lot going for me. Um, I had a good job. That's more than most people have in Pakistan. So I do want to call that out first. That I do understand I was privileged. And then I realized with that privilege also sort of comes responsibility to do something with it. And at the very least. I can become maybe a positive role model because I didn't see very many of those around me. And guess that was a slightly challenging part When I stepped into the industry and corporate life, I realized, well, I don't see a lot of people who are like me. You know, in terms of their gender or work style or representation. And so who do I emulate as a leader and. It and when I would bring that up. I don't think a lot of people understood what I meant or what I was saying because they thought, well, aren't aren't we all the same? And so the nuances of gender differences in leadership, I think, were also lost. And it's not because anyone was intentionally doing that. It's just because, you know, there just aren't enough women in in the industry and in leadership positions. I mean, you know, people just hadn't been exposed to that enough. So, yes, that pose challenges like explaining what needs to be equal or what does an equal playing field meant? Um, sometimes the power distance while being in meetings Um Did set me back. Like, you know, I was selling to people who had been doing their job for almost as long as I've been alive. So it it was it took time to establish trust and credibility. Some people were wonderful, you know, and some were great Teachers I Think everybody ends up teaching you something. Um, and that net I think I leveraged every experience, um, to push me forward. Some taught me what I should do, some taught me what I shouldn't do, and the challenges really were mostly around how do I behave in a situation where I feel awkward? Or how do I behave in a situation where I need a voice at the table or a seat at the table? How do I ask for it? How do I not feel feel small? You know, in a setting, um, all of those things, and they're nuanced. But with time, I realized that there's a way to overcome them. So my experiences, challenges, whatever you call them, um, eventually helped me overcome those challenges, fears, and then also great mentors. I didn't I don't want to say I don't want to claim I did this all on my own. Um, there were times when I did have a lot of support, but I did have great mentors around me, and I made a conscious effort to surround myself with good mentors. I've been very lucky in that regard. Uh, that my mentors understood my potential. Understood what I wanted and then helped coach me towards my goals.

00: 12:57Julia: Amazing. I think the advantage of being the first of, or being alone and not having someone to look up to, is that you can focus on your own path. So, you know, in our world right now, it's so easy to look left and right. So and then just, I don't know, copy what they do. So it takes much, much longer to actually go back and stop and say like, hey, what what do I actually want? I see that often that people really lose what is authentic to them, or what they really want to say, or who they really want to be. And because of that, so I think that's at least a little advantage. And I was wondering if you could share some, some of your experience that you just mentioned this, you know, like, how do I get a seat at the table or how do I raise my voice in in context where it's not heard Automatically.

00: 13:57Jeveriah: So, you know, five years ago, um. The version of me you would have spoken to thought that it's okay to be emotional and and just, you know, if something's unfair, people should just understand and you should, you know, it should be obvious to everyone. Um, I realize now that it's not obvious to everyone and that You shouldn't be emotional when making your ask for something. Um, I do think that you shouldn't completely like there's leadership is about the head and the heart. If you take out the heart, you lose empathy. So don't believe in that. But I do believe in not being emotional. When you know you're upset or you've, you know, you're you feel things aren't going great. Um. So what I did was, or what I know now to do is simply ask for it. You know, I always waited for someone to tap me on the shoulder and say, well, you know, you should do this, but really. If you want something. If I want something, I have to first understand it. And then I have to find out how to get there. And then I have to ask for help. And I realized more often than not, people are willing to help. Like people want to help. All you have to do is ask.

00: 15:26Julia: Up to you to know what you want and have the clarity on that. But then you have to figure out a way and like pan out a strategy and ask for it.

00: 15:35Jeveriah: just ask.

00: 15:37Julia: Okay. Yeah. I mean, leaving the emotions out sounds easier than it is sometimes, especially when something catches you off guard. But I mean, there are ways. In the podcast I had several people that also work with energy for example, you know, they help you remove blocks by actually opening up things. So I've learned or for example, when I go on stage or when I speak to people, there are ways of like calming yourself down because once you step back somehow, if you manage to is in a situation, it's not easy, like when it is emotional to just open up or like, you know, like looking at it a bit more objectively then you can definitely, yeah, get get rid of the emotions that you don't want because you want to make your case like based on, you know, like powerful demands and like emotional demand, but you don't want to, I don't know, start to cry or something. Yeah.

00: 16:33Jeveriah: Yeah. You want to sound unhinged.

00: 16:36Julia: Yeah. Know exactly. Like. Okay. Sure. Little girl.

00: 16:40Jeveriah: Exactly. No. You're right. Julia, you bring up a great point, because that happens when when women become overly emotional, it's kind of like, you know, brushed to the side as, oh, okay. Yeah. Well, you know, yeah, you're acting that way and I think it's discounted. So if we can come to the table with a cool collected head, um, you know, a case based on merits and facts, then I think it can really help versus just coming to the table and being emotional. Yeah.

00: 17:17Julia: And what would you say are your advantages of being a female? Because, I mean, sure, there's lots of great things about being organized and, you know, emotionally stable. And I have the feeling that sometimes, especially in male dominated sectors, that female leaders tend to adapt and become a little bit more rational and a little less driven by the heart or the intuition. Um, would you say you were able to keep a little bit of your female leadership style or or do you catch yourself actually adapting a little bit too much sometimes?

00: 18:01Jeveriah: I think it's a mix of both. Um, that nurturing aspect is certainly there. Um, and it really helps because I'm speaking with clients. I'm helping my clients, um, I'm helping our teams internally, and we're rallying for support. It really helps to understand what people want, what's driving them, what's driving their motivations, what's driving their emotions. So I think I've retained it because it out of habit It helps in what I do. Um, but also it's who I am as a person. Like one of my core values is It sounds weird when I say it myself, but empathy, right? Or service to others like I will I love creating impact, enabling others, helping others. Not because I want to feel good about myself, but because people did that for me. My mentors did that for me. My colleagues have done it for me, my friends have done it for me, and it's helped me significantly over the years, personally and professionally. And while I can't go back and pay them back, I can pay it forward. So I believe in paying it forward. And keeping that leadership trait in me allows me to do that.

00: 19:24Julia: When you say empathy is your core value. What does empathy mean for you?

00: 19:29Jeveriah: Really paying it forward. Understanding what? What motivates people. Um, and what they need in the moment. Like sometimes before I begin a conversation with a colleague, sometimes all you need to do is just ask how their week's been. Um, you know, and spend a minute letting them know that you see the human side of them. That this isn't just about business, that you you see them beyond their role, their job. You see them as a human being. And to me, that's empathy. Just just the ability to see every human being as a human being, really.

00: 20:11Julia: Cool. So it has become important to you, you said, because you had great mentors and people that did that for you. Um, would you would you say it's it's even something more than that, or is it really just a, I would say like a learned core value where you really had this like I had some moments in my life I realized I really want to give back. Or would you say it's really innate to you?

00: 20:38Jeveriah: I don't know if it was innate or if something changed it. I do remember in college I used to be into parliamentary debating, so it's just, you know, I was on the college debate team and, um

00: 20:51Julia: that fits so well to you friendly

00: 20:54Jeveriah: But see. So yeah, it I think it went with my personality. It made me really happy to do that. And I was on the team. And then I had mentors and friends and people who really encouraged me and coached me. And then when I was sort of graduating, there were other people who wanted to get into it. And so I was part of I don't know if you've heard of Rotor act, Rotary and Rotary clubs. So as part of a local Rotar act club and we would organise, um, like these parliamentary debate competitions and that was just I would volunteer my time there. This is that side of college, um, college work. And I saw the impact that created. Like, you know, some of my time spent towards this was helping 300 400 kids Get into this. Um, some of them are, you know, it's helping some of them build confidence. It's helping some of them, um, you know, find the ability to articulate their thoughts. Um, it's helping some people overcome stage fright. Yeah. It was wonderful to see that And I think it started there. And then. I think the ways in which I channeled it changed. I mean, don't organize parliamentary debating competitions now, but I would frequently, um, mentor, you know, people from the academy, for example. I go back and I still speak to academy classes. Um, in April of this year I was in Vietnam doing a social sabbatical with a digital NGO in Vietnam, actually. And so I think the means have changed, but the end is, is still the same. So it was I think it was there in me, but I would not have realized it had my friends and mentors not owned it out of me.

00: 23:00Julia: And I also think what plays a big, big role is being able to leave your own country. So for me, having lived in a couple of countries throughout my life and like having moved to South Africa in 2019, um, and being the foreigner someplace else, um, really, really helps to see the humanity in someone else. Because otherwise, if someone comes to your country and you see everything you see is different, it's different. Everything you see is the difference. Um, your you might not know how that feels to not being able to speak a language or not being able to express yourself fully. So I think for me at least, um, yeah, empathy at the moment is becoming such a big term. You know, it's just so much more than just, um, taking over a perspective. It's what you said. It's like just giving back part. It's empathy also means being able to have a conflict. You know, like when you look at the anatomy of empathy, it's so much larger than you actually think. So if you've never looked into it, um, I can highly recommend you look into like the dimensions of empathy, because I do believe that you fulfill most of them, and perhaps you're even more an empath than you than you think.

00: 24:22Jeveriah: I would love to look into look more into it. Send me book recommendations if you've got any. I'm trying to get back into the habit of reading not on my phone or on a device like actual paperback.

00: 24:35Julia: Same for me. Yeah, I actually listen to audiobooks and.

00: 24:38Jeveriah: Or that.

00: 24:40Julia: I like them. I always, always, always buy the books because I need to somehow have them in my hand. People laugh at me because I honestly, I highlight it because afterwards, which is a great tip, honestly. You go back to your book and look what you highlighted, and it's so much easier for you to summarize or, I don't know, transform it in a in a cool inspiring post or something that you've learned. Yeah.

00: 25:03Jeveriah: Absolutely.

00: 25:03Julia: Books and books of things that I've written down and like, I know once it gets lost.

00: 25:09Jeveriah: Now, I agree, I love books, I love notepads, I love pens. Um, so think I think I'm with you on that one.

00: 25:18Julia: So you were mentioning your social sabbatical. It was in Vietnam, and it sounded super cool. So you were off work for what was it, a month?

00: 25:29Jeveriah: Yes. Four weeks.

00: 25:30Julia: Amazing. And you had to be chosen, or were you? Did you have to raise your hand for that one?

00: 25:36Jeveriah: Both. You. It was, um. So it is sponsored by our work, and it is a flagship CSR program that SAP does every year. Um, you have to be invited to apply. Um, and then you can raise your hand and put in an application, and then you go through a selection process and then, you know, you're deployed to or you're assigned a project in a host country with a group of, um, colleagues that you've never worked with or met before. Um, it was honestly, Julia, It was a lot like. It was a transformative experience I think it comes second only to the Academy Um, because in those four weeks, I think I had the ability to learn or relearn so many things that are so critical and core to us, not just as, you know, leaders in the workplace, but just as human beings. Like, it's important to slow down. And remind ourselves. For me, what it did was it reminded me of. Of how I needed to, you know, reprioritize my life. Like what is really important to me, what really matters. This is what really matters to me Being able to, you know, again. Give back or pay it forward, right. To do something for the community. Create impact. Enable organizations or people Um. My work shouldn't be the only thing that defines me. And this year, I took that very seriously. And the sabbatical helped me Relearn that reminded me of it Among many other things.

00: 27:29Julia: Amazing And it sounds really cool. I mean, when do we get the chance to actually slow down I mean, sometimes I have the feeling as a woman, perhaps when you get a kid, even though I'm not sure if that's slowing down, but let's say.

00: 27:42Jeveriah: Well.

00: 27:44Julia: You Step out of the way You organize your life for a while, like reassess. But that sounds fantastic.

00: 27:52Jeveriah: Yeah. And the ability to make friendships as well. I did not think I could make friendships that again, you know. I'm in my 30s, and it's a little hard to find new people and make new friends. I think the last time that that happened was at the Academy, because we're not we're meeting the same people, right? We're not meeting a whole lot of new people every day. Um, but, I mean, we spent four weeks, um, every single day with like, 12 other people that we did not know at all. But we got to know so well by the end of the four weeks, it was amazing to again, remember that we have the ability to see people as people, like it doesn't matter where someone comes from or what language they speak at the core of it. Everybody wanted to do the same thing. We wanted to do something good. So, you know my move, the sabbatical, just being more reflective and intentional about things has really helps me see that. Where humans before were anything else, before where any geography or before, where any faith or where any culture we're humans and the ability to know that and internalize it and believe it. It is. It really has set me free.

00: 29:21Julia: So how can we make more people know that? What do you think people have to understand in order to actually get to this core message, this universal truth? Because I'm completely with you and I don't know, I think we are in a position where we can share this knowledge in in different ways. Do you somehow bring that also back to, to your own culture, to Pakistan, or would you say.

00: 29:45Jeveriah: Yeah. No, absolutely. I was going to say it starts from me home, you know, the things and people closest to me. And it started from critical thinking and holding myself and others accountable for things that didn't sound right. Like, I'll give you an example or a remember, this was again happening at work. I was still in Pakistan at the time and somebody. Just had very strong opinions about the way I should dress and the way I should speak, because I'm a woman and this is this conversation is happening in a room with some really senior people, all men, and then just me. So it was inappropriate at several levels. And, you know, it shouldn't have happened. And I realized that until such time, I have the ability to understand and call out what's wrong? You know, even if it's about me, even if it's about my culture, uh, you know, the country where I was born. Whatever. I will not truly be able to understand. What is right, wrong, fair, unfair. Just unjust. Um, so I think it started from there. It was a very uncomfortable process to, you know, hold myself and things and ideas that I'd grown up with, um, like, challenged them, hold them accountable, challenge them a little bit. But only then was I able to understand. And and create that ability to to relate to other people.

00: 31:26Julia: Yeah. And I think that the most difficult part about this is the fact that, um, you know, we talk about beliefs, but the unfortunate thing is they are not really beliefs. We believe them to be facts. Otherwise, you know, we wouldn't act on them. So it's very difficult to develop this critical thinking or questioning certain things that you do because they feel like facts to you. They don't It's like saying, I don't know, this is not called a tree. Why should I question this? You know what? You know what I mean. If this is really something you consider a fact. So I guess it needs someone sometimes from outside of us in the beginning to initiate this process. Like someone had asked these questions or, like, shows you like, hey, this doesn't have to be like this. Yeah. For for someone to understand. And then then you're on the path, like, okay, if this is not true, like, what about what if this wasn't true? Or what if I could be more than this, you know, like then all of.

00: 32:29Jeveriah: Exactly. Exactly. For me, that person was my. Well, now my husband, you know, then fiancee. You remember you and I spoke about bad when we were at the academy. We used to talk about, um, about him because I was engaged at the time. But I think being with him has helped me You know, become comfortable with being wrong Challenging myself Because he created a safe space.

00: 33:04Julia: Great.

00: 33:05Jeveriah: Where I didn't feel threatened. And then, obviously, it's not just him. There are other people do. Um, my first mentor, my mind always goes back to. And I speak so much about mentors because truly, they've they've changed my life. My first mentor was also my first boss, um, and a really good friend now. And when I started working, he would um, so he'd come back as an investment. He used to work on the Wall Street as an investment banker. He'd come back to Pakistan. So, you know, also become an entrepreneur. And he was hiring a team of analysts. And I was fresh out of college. I wanted the experience. So I, you know, our paths crossed. Um, and when I work directly with him, you know, he would challenge me on certain things and ideas like, why? Why do you think that? Why does that have to be right in the context of work, obviously But He, I think, honed that ability to critically think right. And then as I move forward again, the mentors have been so lucky again, the, um, the manager who hired me into my first position in Canada. A wonderful female leader who really leads with her head Her heart brings her whole self to work. She's been such a great role model. Um, you know, she did that for me in a very in the most A constructive, nurturing way where again, I didn't feel threatened.

00: 34:41Julia: To such an important.

00: 34:43Jeveriah: Creating that safe space, I think, was what made the difference. And now I've learned that. Yeah, and I do it for others, but I also do it for myself. So now I'm not really my feelings aren't hurt when somebody is going to challenge or ask a question or say something about, you know, a belief that I have or I've had or something that I do like. It's it's not personal. Yeah. I don't know if that makes sense.

00: 35:13Julia: No, it makes complete sense. And I don't know, I find it very interesting because obviously you always read into what you hear, what you're still what you're working on yourself at the moment. You're like, we all have subjective minds and it depends on what we've learned before. And so I'm next to this empathy topic. I'm also thinking a lot about like what makes someone authentic, you know, like when can someone really be authentic. And we most of the time we think of someone authentic as someone very positive. But you can be also an authentic asshole. But what requires authenticity is really that you're the person that is opposite of you, gives you the feeling that it's okay to be vulnerable to, that it's okay to be authentic and real because, I mean, if you have someone, let's say, like it is in the very beginning, you're female in tech. And then there's this boss, like very dominant figure, and he asks you a question and you know that a wrong answer, he will give you a stamp of being dumb. You will not give you honest opinion. You will try to like, find a way of like answering the right way. And and I think this is such a crucial point. I really it's really touching. Like when you say like the safe space because I think it's such a, it's a key to being able to grow if you have the safe space and if you're able to create safe spaces in your life, like you said you have with your bed, and that's fantastic because it's the closest person you have. Like our life partner, one of the biggest choices we make in our life, friends like the five people that surround you with, I mean, we all have heard about this. workplace, so just making sure that you choose wisely, like places where you can feel safe and be yourself so that you give yourself the opportunity to grow and dare and in the end, take risks. Then we come back here full circle to taking risks.

00: 37:19Jeveriah: Exactly. Exactly. I think it's it's also a function of experience, don't you think? Like when I think back to seven years ago, think it's been seven years since the Academy, it was much harder to see these things. Now they all look like such obvious, commonsense, um, you know, narratives. But back then. Like I have to admit, and I'm a little ashamed to admit, but some of these things weren't that obvious. And I did have biases. And you know, I wasn't maybe as open to challenging myself. But the ability to do that, like I said, has truly set me free.

00: 38:00Julia: Then I think there's also a time to take more risks, and I think it's worth it now. You know, we're still like we have learned a ton, like we are at a stage where we have understood lots of things about ourselves, where it's okay to to fail, you know, where it's not influencing our identity or like our self-worth because we know that, you know, for me, like leaving SAP was leaving a part of my identity, like working for a fortune 500 company And all of a sudden, being someone that works for yourself, there's no big name to back you. There's nothing that's just like Julia. You are selling yourself. So obviously you live in the beginning from appreciation and like someone telling you like you're doing great. And so having an understanding like, oh, that's why it's so hard. It's like I left some part of my identity. And now having done this like several times, like because I've changed my roles throughout the last four years, like often it's more and more easy to do so. So now taking risks is probably less risky than it was in the beginning. And I really think also, you know, when you're a teenager and it's very important to make sure perhaps perhaps it's wrong. I'm not sure if that's right what I'm saying. But choosing tasks that you can succeed succeed on so that you, you know, get some successes in your book so that you can build on them. I'm not sure. It's just came up.

00: 39:36Jeveriah: No. Absolutely. Knowing what you're good at and then rinsing and repeating, yeah, yeah, that comes with more experience. And, you know, it also does, um, reduce your risk profile, so to speak.

00: 39:51Julia: Yeah, exactly.

00: 39:52Jeveriah: That makes complete sense.

00: 39:54Julia: Pretty cool. See, I've learned something as well.

00: 39:58Jeveriah: Constantly learning. I enjoyed some of our conversations the most. Um, I remember, I remember, you know, actually an incident, Julia, from from the academy. We were we were at the Hyatt house. We were by the pool. And it's strange that I'm afraid of dogs. Um, not as much now. It's gotten better, but I used to be a lot back then. It's just, you know, it's attack by a dog as a kid, and I just grew up in fear. Whatever. Um, so there was, like, a huge dog. Very adorable. Was just playing with with kids in the family. But I was so scared. Um, and you saw that And while I know that it's not common for you to see that. You know, you wonder. You know what was feeling. And you very politely, because I don't want to be rude or impolite. So I didn't ask. I didn't say anything. I just sat in one place in fear. She saw that and you got up and you just politely requested the family. You know that my friend is scared. Can you please, like, put your dog on a leash or something? And then that was just okay. And I realized in that moment, like it was such a small act of kindness, but it stuck with me all these years. So I think, think those behaviors, they're always there in us. They just come out in different ways as we become more mature.

00: 41:23Julia: Now, it makes sense. See, I don't even remember this scene. Yeah, yeah, it was a great it was an interesting time. And now you are a manager. But before we go.

00: 41:35Jeveriah: not a people manager, but okay, I'm a senior account executive. Um,

00: 41:42Julia: managing mid-market.

00: 41:45Jeveriah: Yeah. So you know, manage accounts.

00: 41:50Jeveriah: Not people we work with. Well, you know, actually it's more challenging because it's it's doing, doing all the work but without a title. Um, So it's a balance between between how do you influence people without without a title and, well, how do you actually not come across as an asshole, as you said earlier?

00: 42:13Julia: So what do you mean. Without a title?

00: 42:17Jeveriah: You know a manager or a VP or a you know director Those are titles that bring more authority, I think, to a role. Um. But all of us, I think, are influencing people all the time, especially in sales. Our jobs revolve around building consensus, influencing people. Um, and so to do that without a formal title or, you know, authority I think requires more tact and skill. Yeah. And it's a good thing, you know, because then you learn You learn what it really takes To be a good teammate, a good leader, just basically not become an insufferable human being for for the other people who are working with you.

00: 43:13Julia: Yeah. That makes sense. And I mean, I know you a bit, so I think that you will manage good enough. Okay, cool. But I was wondering, you know, if if ten years ago, someone had told you where you are today, like in Canada, in your role, would you have been would it have been something that you wanted? Or has this developed trough out the way that you always want to be or live abroad, for example? Or did you always knew that career was going to be your thing or something that you want to follow?

00: 43:48Jeveriah: I always knew, you know, certain things Like the career part. I always knew that I wanted to really build my career. It meant a lot to me. Um, I think back then, because I felt it was my identity. But obviously in the last ten years, or at least seven years, I've realized it's not my identity. It's just a part of who I am. It's helped me learn a lot more about myself. That's why I like it. And it's explored me to expose me to other opportunities, um, through which I can, you know, truly be myself. So I think that's why I also like expanding upon it. So I always knew I wanted to take my career. Forward Build on it Expand it. In order to do that, I knew I had to change something. No. I hadn't imagined ten years ago I would be here doing this job, you know. Experiencing all these things. I had not imagined that path. I just knew that I wanted To expand my career. I knew I wanted new experiences. I knew that I wanted to be in a place in a position where I felt safe and free to do the things that I want, and it's very instinctive As human beings, we know when we are not safe, when we don't feel safe, when we're not completely free to make the choices that we want like we we can tell. And so I always knew that I wanted to make changes. I just didn't know they would turn out this way. Honestly, I thought ten years ago if you'd asked me, I thought I'd be doing my post-grad, I'd be in business school, maybe doing an MBA, and then just, you know, taking that path. Yeah, maybe somewhere abroad and then working. Just very different life. Um. Doing this. I didn't even know it would work out this way. I consider myself very lucky, but I think it goes back to what you said about about authenticity. It goes very always very true to what I knew I was good at and what I wanted and when I genuinely pursued. You know what I wanted. Um, I think the path just revealed itself.

00: 46:16Julia: Yeah. Taking one step at a time That feels good. I don't know if I've ever shared this story, but, um. I have three little siblings. Three little. They're younger than me. And so I'm the oldest. And I realize one occasion, you know, when I. I always wanted to go to a boarding school in, in England and it didn't work out at the time. And then my not my this sort of follows right after me, but the one that's eight years younger than me, she eventually went like obviously eight years later. And that was, for me, really a pivotal moment of understanding like, oh, you're going to see like three versions of yourself doing perhaps what you always dreamt of. And so that might be quite, you know, um, might lead on a path where you might be jealous of, like, that could have been me. I could have done that. So in this moment, I swore on myself that I would be very careful with the things that I choose or the steps that I make, so that they always feel like they're exactly right thing to do at the time, I don't know if they would turn out a certain way, or you know, that it would lead in a specific direction, but that I would always feel confident and not like leave something on the table that I dreamt of doing. Um, and that has served me quite well, and that I think that's the only way forward to just like, choose the next step, like learn how to listen to your intuition and just go for it and then see what reveals itself, I guess.

00: 47:55Jeveriah: Yeah. So not leaving any what ifs, basically.

00: 48:00Julia: Honestly. Yeah, that's the bottom line, I guess. Yeah. And I mean, sure, probably they will still come up because we have unlimited choices like one of the problems of our modern world. But it helps if you really make bold choices or take the risks to at least say, like, yeah, sure, there were five other options, but this one sounded pretty exciting at the time. So I guess that was also one reason why you raised your hand for Canada. Or if someone, when someone invited you that you said like, okay, let's go.

00: 48:33Jeveriah: Yeah. You know, actually, it was it was funny almost how things happened. Um, and so I'll tell you a story. Um, I knew I wanted to move. I think this was around 2019, 2020 because I wanted to be close to family. So by that time I knew that I wanted to move because I want it to be closer to my family, Abed's family, you know. And then career wise it would have been better too. So, um, I was thinking of doing that already. And then, um, that example I was telling you about earlier, right, about the the comment someone had made and just general awareness of, okay, this is why do I constantly have to bargain for myself to be at the table, like I don't need to be in this position. So that awareness, you know, I think it eventually led me to decide, okay, it's time to move. Um, this was in 2020, so I was in Hawaii for work event and a lot of the.

00: 49:47Julia: Work Event, you overperformed, my dear.

00: 49:52Jeveriah: Well.

00: 49:55Julia: Just for context, you if you overperform at SAP, you are sent to Hawaii on a trip as a as a congratulation. You did it so. But yeah, there was a little work trip so continues

00: 50:08Jeveriah: Right. And then I met, um, you know, a lot of Canadian leadership was there too, because that year Canada had done really well. So a lot of people from Canada were present there. And I had an opportunity to introduce myself to a few people, get to know a few others, etcetera. When I was coming back, I made a stopover at the office. So I met a few more people. All of this to say, you know, I use that opportunity to start building a small network here. This was in February. March. Covid happened. You know, I wasn't nobody knew where the world was going, what was going to happen. There was so much uncertainty. Around July, though. I started speaking to the manager that I was telling you about. Her name is Gina. And so was it Started looking around March, march to June. July. Somewhere around that time, I started talking to Gina. You know, she had an opening that I didn't know about, but I'd reached out to someone at SAP who was helping me find opportunities. And she said, well, you know, this head counts open, looks open if you want to apply for the role. I said, sure, I put in my application. Um, Gina, I think had, um. You know, interviewed a few candidates. I think she was very close to making a decision. And Just I think a few minutes. Before she was about to like close the process. My application comes to like her inbox.

00: 51:48Julia: Wow.

00: 51:50Jeveriah: And she's like, oh wait, we've got one more applicant you need to interview. And, you know, we went through a long process.

00: 51:59Jeveriah: What a timing.

00: 52:00Jeveriah: We yeah. Had had a few conversations. Obviously I got hired. But yeah great timing. Also, someone said this to me like, Jeff, I don't know what you're doing, but someone's really looking out for you. Um, so, you know, that was that was a lot of luck in coincidence. Um. And then then I decided. So yeah, I raised my hand in terms of, you know, I was looking for a rule is reaching out to people. But that other part was like, it's 50/50. And then I think after I got here, it was still Covid. So, you know, I had to raise my I saw myself raising my hand constantly to actively try to reach out to people, try to get to know them because we couldn't meet. It had to be conversations and zoom calls. Um, so yes, it starts with us. And then it's I think it's enabled by wonderful people around us. We're able to see our potential, you know, expose us to opportunities. And suchlike. Yeah.

00: 53:11Julia: I think that's pretty. Pretty true. I read this quote where it says, like, you know, there are lots of people that are willing to work hard, but you also have to have the opportunity to actually do so. So I remember it was in a book called outliers. So he looked into what makes, I don't know, like, for example, why is Bill gates Bill gates today. And he looked for reasons like beyond talent. Obviously that made them more successful than someone else. And it is, in the end always opportunity or like, you know, the chance to prove yourself in a certain context. So it's pretty interesting to hear how you got where you are. And I mean, there's lots of work and willingness to work on oneself and like in your career for sure, but it pays off. I think that's that's really the, the bottom line that we can take away from here. Yeah I think.

00: 54:08Jeveriah: Oh, yes.

00: 54:10Julia: Yeah. The last. There's so many more questions I have for you, but I am. Abed is also an entrepreneur. Is that correct?

00: 54:20Jeveriah: He? Yes, used to be. He's now working with a Canadian startup. But yes, for the longest time he used the great memory.

00: 54:28Julia: Yeah, because I was wondering. We have the same here. Some as employed working for a big corporation, and I'm working on my own. So I think this is also a very interesting play between partners. But it has changed in for you a little bit because he moved with you, I guess, because you were the one that's got the the opportunity, which is great. I think if you have someone that is willing to discover the world with you, in the end it only takes one person to get the job or get the opportunity, and everything else will figure itself out if you're open to try.

00: 55:07Jeveriah: Yeah, it does take a lot of support. I think your family, your closest people, friends, family, partner, um. If they're supportive of your ambitions and if they're aligned with you and you're aligned with them on the things that you want, then it makes it easier for sure. Yeah, like my sisters are here, for example. All three of them are in North America.

00: 55:35Julia: Yeah.

00: 55:36Jeveriah: Fun fact I've got eight nieces.

00: 55:38Julia: No way.

00: 55:40Jeveriah: Yeah. I don't know how many I had when we. When we met, but there ain't no. Um. So, you know, my parents actually have been also very supportive always of the things that we've wanted to do. Um. So it takes a village for sure to be able to to pull off the things that we do.

00: 56:02Julia: Yeah. Pretty cool. Pretty cool to learn. Okay, so is there anything that we haven't covered that you think is very important to know about you?

00: 56:12Jeveriah: No. That's everything. I've started learning how to cook. Well, not. Sorry. Refined that. Not started learning how to cook. I can cook really well now because I know when we met, I couldn't cook to save my life. So you should absolutely know that. Because next time you're coming to Canada and hope that soon, um, hopefully I can treat you to a home cooked meal.

00: 56:38Julia: Awesome. That is great news. Thank you so much for this interview. Was really great to hear your story. Thanks for sharing so much and engaging in the conversation. Um, yeah, I'm pretty sure lots of people can learn Yeah, how to be brave, taking risks, um, trust themselves, being open to whatever life brings. So thank you very much for that.

00: 57:04Julia: Thank you for the opportunity. And this was a wonderful conversation. Was lovely catching up with you.

00: 57:10Jeveriah: Thank you so much.